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Otis
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 22, 2009 - 11:06 PM
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We are where we are because this is suitable, there is no center of the universe, space expands everywhere between everything thus making it impossible to pinpoint a place to be its center. Out of all the billions of stars immediately around us, (by immediate i mean within a 100 million light year radius.....yo space big enuh) we have the ONLY star placed advantagely enough to support life, this is by no means something to throw out.
Really now? what more can we want? the center of the milky way is reported to house a black hole, other areas have stars 100's of times bigger and hotter than our sun... sooooo, i'm quite fine being on the far off corner. Life is life, we still cant fully explain or undertsand space yet we are ready to deem areas as "lame"? pssh at one tyme we thought our solar system was the universe...... accept where we are placed, for the planets before and behind us are.....well dead, that says a lot.....
if the oxygen levels in our atmosphere were any higher, lighting a match would ignite and burn through the atmosphere(yes we would all be killed), little lower and not enough to support life), if we were any closer to the sun, our oceans would dry up and our world become dry and barren, farther and we freeze and the world becomes a frozen wasteland. We were placed strategically and all levels, all criteria has been fulfilled. Stop ignoring all the small details that obviously are not as random as as you make them seem, On the grandest of scales theres no such thing as random occurrence, order cannot be forged from disorder.
The big band allegedly sparked off everything laying building blocks for everything, question, one random event outside of time(time as we kno it could not have existed before the big bang) caused a huge explosion...... again, law of casuality, the big bang was a massively sized explosion, an explosion is the high energy result of a series reactions, so, explosions are EFFECTS of of those reactions, now, what.....no Who caused these reactions? since explosion do not make themselves or have any real consiousness, there need to be a grand Architect behind it all. You cannot go around it. There has to be an ultimate cause.
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 23, 2009 - 07:11 PM
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So the universe was made for us and we are truly blessed to be on a perfect planet that has had mass extinctions wiping out 90% of life on at least one occasion (the Permian extinction). This is all part of a divine plan, with a creator who plays with life like you and I would play a game of ping pong.
Randomness combined with billions of years of time describes the universe we see around us. What came before the Big Bang? It's a great question, but I can tell you it is no more logical to give credence to a creature behind a green curtain (The Ultimate Wizard of Oz) as being the intelligent creator than it is to state that the Big Bang was a unique occurrence.
Whether this universe is the only universe is another one of the more interesting speculations that scientists are theorizing these days. In the multiverse model, a universe can spring into being through an event in a parent universe. That event may very well be an explosion from the generation of energy coming out of a super black hole. It will be many years before we can create experiments to determine if that hypothesis is correct or not.
If you have been reading my postings in this debate up until now, I have tried to express my understanding of why we have religion, that it is a function of our social species, a need for a higher order to play the alpha role. Many other animals seek an alpha to lead the pack. Ants have queens. Elephants have a maternal alpha. Lions even have a maternal alpha. We are a pretty sophisticated social animal and have developed a curiosity about the world around us that appears to be more sophisticated than other species although I am not entirely sure that other animals don't show curiosity and don't think about stuff like we do. But we are not in a unique position on this planet in which the homeostasis of the atmosphere is determined by a super being. Homeostasis is by its very nature an accommodation to balance created over time. 200 million years ago there was more atmospheric oxygen than there is today. No match got lit by dinosaurs so I guess that's the reason the planet didn't blow up. 4 billion years ago our planet's atmosphere was entirely different with no released oxygen to speak of. When the first bacteria evolved the byproduct of their respiration was the oxygen we breath today.
I fully appreciate the need that many humans have for a religious centre to their lives. It is obviously important to them because it fulfills a need. But it is a crutch. It has served to bring people together and has been an agent of divisiveness leading to religiously inspired mass murder. Considering our humanity, it seems to me that religion is our creation as is the god or gods that those who are religious worship. That certainly fits with the human species, a social animal that organizes around alpha dominant leaders and from time to time competes with its own species and others on this planet.
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Otis
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 23, 2009 - 10:22 PM
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hmmm, as the last creatures to come on this Earth it would seem more like everything was put in place for us. There has been a few extinctions but face it......who wants to wake up to the roar of a T-rex? those extinctions were necessary in order to set the stage for us, all goes acording to His will..... unnecessary, well yes, as far as our undrstandings go He took the mighty long way in doing everything, but He has His plan.
Now, the purpose of religion, you stated that all animals needed a leader to move up to, using that same logic why does it have to be that we made up a god? you said it yourself, there is a need for a higher order to play the alpha role, Why do you rather believe we made one up over that there is one? everything is a design, billions of years have passed but as far as our telescopes allow us to see we are the one and only planet that got everything right, the one planet with many ups and downs that paved the road for our success as a species.
The universe cannot be explained by saying its a random seres of events simply because of the complexities of the laws that forces that bind us together. It's just too grand and intricket to leave as chance, thats like walking in a museum and saying Mona lisa wasnt drawn it was just a random splatter of ink that ran out on the paper.... To call such complex arrays of systems, laws and forces on our world and throughout the universe as random is taking serious credit from where it is due
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This post was edited on: 2009-08-23 at 11:35 PM by: Oats162
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 24, 2009 - 01:15 AM
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Oats162 wrote:
hmmm, as the last creatures to come on this Earth it would seem more like everything was put in place for us. There has been a few extinctions but face it......who wants to wake up to the roar of a T-rex? those extinctions were necessary in order to set the stage for us, all goes acording to His will..... unnecessary, well yes, as far as our undrstandings go He took the mighty long way in doing everything, but He has His plan.
Now, the purpose of religion, you stated that all animals needed a leader to move up to, using that same logic why does it have to be that we made up a god? you said it yourself, there is a need for a higher order to play the alpha role, Why do you rather believe we made one up over that there is one? everything is a design, billions of years have passed but as far as our telescopes allow us to see we are the one and only planet that got everything right, the one planet with many ups and downs that paved the road for our success as a species.
The universe cannot be explained by saying its a random seres of events simply because of the complexities of the laws that forces that bind us together. It's just too grand and intricket to leave as chance, thats like walking in a museum and saying Mona lisa wasnt drawn it was just a random splatter of ink that ran out on the paper.... To call such complex arrays of systems, laws and forces on our world and throughout the universe as random is taking serious credit from where it is due
This line of argument is called "arguing from personal incredulity."
"The universe is so intricate, it just can't be random..." Open your mind, the universe is so awesome, it can't possibly have been designed by anyone!
If I may build on LenRosen's very good example of mass extinction events here on earth, there are also photos astronomers have made of complete GALAXIES in the death throes of massive collisions with other galaxies. Mindboggling amounts of matter are being smashed and reformed into new galaxies of stars.
What religious narrative can come even close to explaining these cataclysmic events taking place so far away from the Earth? What relevancy do these events have for us here on Earth? None whatsoever. Clearly religious stories were created to impress small minds to do what the priestly classes wanted. It's that simple.
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James An
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 24, 2009 - 12:20 PM
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I find it ironic that the teleological argument (from design) depends so much on the assumption that (irreducibly) complex things must have had a designer, but ignore the larger implication that the designer of such a complex thing is probably (or must be) a complex being him/herself. If you declare complex things as needing designers, what stops the designers - themselves - from requiring other designers? Why does the ultimate cause have no cause, itself?
The Wiki article on design arguments quite conclusively invalidates the logical soundness of these arguments for God.
In fairness, I have to admit that logical arguments against the existence of God (i.e. God must not exist) are also largely unsound.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teleological_argument
I also think it's quite a leap to declare whether or not extinctions or other global events were necessary for us to exist. That makes sweeping assumptions that are simply unverified. What we know is that these events did happen, but that does not mean that these events had to have happened for us to be.
I also find it ironic that some claim that God's plan cannot be fully known, and subsequently preach about God's plan as if the claimant has unique insight into such a plan.
Here are some reasons why I believe people made God and God didn't make people:
- There are countless religions and a variety of Gods.
- These religions are incompatible with each other.
- Religions often (if not always) claim to be the right one and that others are wrong ones.
- Religious texts claim to be true and correct by their own merit, which is obviously unsound and unverifiable.
- It is well-known that, when present with sufficiently complex things and phenomenon, people will believe such things and phenomenon to be magical and divinely caused. Entire cargo cults (i.e. religious practises) have sprung up in the 20th century when technologically-simple folks encountered techologically-advanced folks thinking all sorts of magic created electronics, commercial food, and modern medicine. In these cases, we precisely understand that these things are natural and not divine, yet when we are confronted by something that seems exceedingly complex, we again appeal to the divine. I am not saying that it cannot be divine, but I'm arguing that you are wrong in asserting that such complexity cannot be natural, and increasingly we are finding natural causes and no divinity anywhere.
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Otis
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 24, 2009 - 09:20 PM
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tru, i do agree and those are valid reasons, each and all religions claim to be right with some holding having completely different rituals and practices. But first, the who made the Maker, going back and back in the what made what wars leads to a never ending cycle, which is why we dub the Creator as the Ultimate Cause, there has to be a bed stone, something that ignited it all, that something has to have some level of consciousness to design everything as we see today. An apple came from a tree which came from a seed which came from another apple which came from another tree, that goes back and back to the basic element of hydrogen, the hydrogen atom is comprised of smaller elements, we believe the Creator set all elements up to build on each other, everything was planned by His will.
Now, there is nothing i can say to convince you or anyone that Christianity is the one true religion, i can tell you why i believe it is and why i don't believe in others but the choice of whether it is true or not is between you and God. That is where our role of witness an evangelists end. Hope i didn't miss out anything.
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prieten47
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 25, 2009 - 01:53 AM
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Oats162 wrote:
tru, i do agree and those are valid reasons, each and all religions claim to be right with some holding having completely different rituals and practices. But first, the who made the Maker, going back and back in the what made what wars leads to a never ending cycle, which is why we dub the Creator as the Ultimate Cause, there has to be a bed stone, something that ignited it all, that something has to have some level of consciousness to design everything as we see today. An apple came from a tree which came from a seed which came from another apple which came from another tree, that goes back and back to the basic element of hydrogen, the hydrogen atom is comprised of smaller elements, we believe the Creator set all elements up to build on each other, everything was planned by His will.
Now, there is nothing i can say to convince you or anyone that Christianity is the one true religion, i can tell you why i believe it is and why i don't believe in others but the choice of whether it is true or not is between you and God. That is where our role of witness an evangelists end. Hope i didn't miss out anything.
Well, Otis, I see no amount of reasoning will change your mind. But I will leave you with this last thought: what if you hadn't been born in Jamaica? What if you had been born in Egypt or India or Tibet? Isn't it so obvious that you would be posting arguments here at TIG in favor of Islam or Hinduism or Buddhism right now? People generally believe the same things their parents do, no matter how silly. You were born in a Christian country and came under the influence of Christians, so now you are convinced the Christian religion is true. Likewise, other young people are growing up under the influence of different religions. Some of these young people are being convinced to strap bombs to themselves so they can go to heaven, others are telling women they have no right to enjoy sex because Eve ate an apple. It's really so sad and not really necessary. All it takes is saying to yourself, "Hey, wait a minute. What if it just isn't true?"
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 25, 2009 - 02:49 PM
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Hmmm. There always has to have been an ultimate creator? That is an easy assumption raised by a species with a finite existence. We are born and we die. Ergo, there has to be a beginning and an end. Well what if there is no beginning or no end. What if the beginning of this universe in the Big Bang, is a byproduct of another universe? I know for most of us it is hard to envision infinite existence or infinite time. After all isn't there a spatial and temporal measure for such terms?
The most exciting aspect of our existence comes when we seek knowledge of what surrounds us. We start as a baby focused on the sensations and faces that are nearby. We grow up and explore our room, our house, our neighbourhood, our city, and so on. We explore and test ideas. We seek new places, find ideas that we held as tenets no longer viable, and grow and learn from the experience. We invent technology that sees for us, rolling back the tides of what is unknown. That is our existence.
What religion is famous for is giving us certainty, a supposed moral compass, a life plan with consequences if we fail to meet its expectations. There is not much room in religion for knowledge seeking that questions the tenets of faith.
I choose to ask questions and seek answers that religion has never been able to solve. I choose to stretch my mind, to try and observe what is around me beyond the confines of my species. I am convince that we humans are not the penultimate expression of evolution, that we are not made in anyone's image, nor do we hold dominion over all of the animals and plants as is stated in Genesis, the book that I was exposed to as a child. I have read the Quran. I have read the Book of Tao. I have studied all forms of Christianity, Buddhism, Confucianism, Bahai, the Hindu faith and animistic faiths. These religions have served and remain artifacts of our species. There is no god or gods out there. There is our planet and its many species and whatever else we find out there as we explore our solar system and solar systems to come should our species be lucky enough to make the great leap beyond our local environment.
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Otis
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 25, 2009 - 08:07 PM
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sorry Prieten, i neva saw any of your replies till now... Don't be so quick to talk like that, that has been on my mind for quite sometime now when i was younger. As it fact that being born in a Christian home around other Christians must have impacted greatly on ma views now. But in time i received my answer which was then where i fully committed. The answer to that question is not hard, its actually pretty easy when you really think about it, but its something you must reveal for yourself.. like i said, there is nothing I, nor anyone can say to fully legitimize any religion to a non believer simply because of the nature of it all. Religion....especially Christianity is about belief and faith... We have a saying... "You can lead donkey to water but you cant force it to drink"(donkeys are said to be stubborn).
Now, back to the Creation thing, there's a problem with that universe being infinite and what not because of thing such as half-life, and also because of how the universe expands. like i said before, the universe has no center because space itself everywhere is expanding, the spaces between planets, between galaxies are getting wider, this pushing continues to get stronger and stronger....eventually(far far far long long time) in the way way distant no where near now future this force will become so great that it begins acting on a molecular level tearing down all elements into the raw basics.(or so current research shows....)
and len, without a God, what purpose is there? what reason is there to live, why do people hang on to life in terms of hardship? We cling and commit to our God because of the promise made to us and because He is worthy. Without God, then there is no reason to endure, all i have will rot, my riches will be lost, my house will be destroyed, my cars will rust, everything i worked for will all whither away as my name fades into the nothingness of death.
We believe that God created the things around us and gave us our purpose upon this earth... You can read and touch every religious system there is but as long as you hold such a mentality it will all seem folly. The believe of a Being larger than us that sits literally outside of time is the drive that gives us hope that there is something beyond this rotting world. Everything dies, no exceptions, where it takes 65-100 years or 65-100 billion years....nothing in this universe stays forever. Worlds, Stars, everything... nothing escapes the reach of time. I know why I serve the God I serve and I know why i don't agree with the customs of others. Philosophy is also apart of scripture.
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Len Rosen
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 26, 2009 - 08:04 AM
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Dear Otis,
If a god or gods provide the only purpose for the meaning of existence then I must not exist. I find the pursuit of the unknown, and life itself as purposeful. I wake up every morning in awe of the rising Sun. I go out at night and watch the Moon, stars and planets in all their celestial splendor. I turn over rocks to see what is beneath. I watch how my dog interacts with me, with other humans, with other dogs, and other animals and plants, and try to understand how she perceives the world around her. Life is about growth, about learning, about aging and even about dying. Although my existence may be finite, and even this universe may have a finite existence, I try and grasp an understanding of the infinite. If that isn't purposeful then what is?
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Siddiq
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
August 26, 2009 - 01:15 PM
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So, friends, all in an epic debate? well! take a break! Solve these riddles.
1.why the count of days in a week is always seven?
2.why natural numbers begin with 1?
3.why every language starts its alphabets with the sound a as in A, alpha, alif ?
Persons successfully solving these riddles certainly will tell whether my Almighty created this Universe or Universe just exists just like that. happy try!
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Md. Farhad Hussain
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 2, 2009 - 04:32 AM
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Answer to Q1.
The period of time during which Earth completes a single revolution around the sun, consisting of 365 days, 5 hours, 49 minutes, and 12 seconds of mean solar time. In the Gregorian calendar the year begins on January 1 and ends on December 31 and is divided into 12 months, 52 weeks, and 365 or 366 days. Also called calendar year.
Answer to Q2.
The counting numbers, starting with "One" or "First” are natural numbers. A natural number is a collection of indivisible ones. Note that 1 is a part of every natural number (except itself), because every natural number is a multiple of 1. Which part is it? The part that says the number's name.
Answer to Q3.
The “A” sound being the first sound uttered by early humans represented the “beginning”. In the context of creation theories the root sound “A” represented the first act of creation. In the alphabets “A” is usually the first letter because of the same reason. The Latin “A” is Alpha in Greek, Alif in Arabic, Aleph in Hebrew and “A” in Sanskrit.
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Md. Farhad Hussain
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 2, 2009 - 05:10 AM
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Hello Siddiq al Hyder,
It would have been better if your God really alleviates the suffering of the people than me being compassionate. There is no good for the sufferer if someone is compassionate or not.
This post was edited on: 2009-09-02 at 06:34 AM by: mfhussain
This post was edited on: 2009-09-02 at 06:36 AM by: mfhussain
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Md. Farhad Hussain
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 2, 2009 - 05:18 AM
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Hello Len,
Your postings are truly great. I have become your big fan. Carry on your work. We need much more discourse on these topics to make the people of our world free and emancipated.
Farhad
Bangladesh
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Siddiq
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Re: Creationism, Evolution and Intelligent Design
September 2, 2009 - 12:49 PM
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Well tried my friend! bravo!
Evaluation of Answer to my Q-1: Well! 52*7=364 not 365 or 366, so 7 days in a week still remains a mystery.
Result::Riddle unsolved.
Evaluation of Answer to my Q-2: Well! You have come close. But the answer would be confusing to a layman. also, why one is the beginning if the universe is infinite and eternal and according to this nature of Universe, natural numbers should begin with infinity...
Result::Riddle unsolved.
Evaluation of Answer to my Q-3: If evolution has ever happened, why no other animal is able to produce such a simple sound - the beginning sound of early humans?
Result::Riddle unsolved.
Well! friend! Don't be disappointed. Fortune favors the brave! Keep trying..*
I never asked you to be compassionate and that's not our point of debate. Well! rationality is urged.
All the best! Farhad!
This post was edited on: 2009-09-02 at 02:08 PM by: siddiq92
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